<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1332</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	11/10/99 1:59:08 AM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest    Wednesday, November 10 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 1332<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Cultures (WAS Evolution...) Longish<BR>
Re: Consumer products in 3I (was Coke for Kiri (OT))<BR>
Re: ... Sixth Frontier War!<BR>
OOP Trav stuff<BR>
Re: Cultures (WAS Evolution and the drifting generation ship)<BR>
Latest graphic is up!<BR>
Re: Arts and Culture in and around 3I<BR>
Re: Zhodani Gov't<BR>
Web Site<BR>
Re: Travshorts II<BR>
Traveller Auction: DGP, large format GDW, misc.<BR>
Fifth Frontier War Starts 20 November<BR>
Re: Travshorts II<BR>
Re: Coke for Kiri (OT)<BR>
Re Zhodani<BR>
Re: Zhodani Govt.<BR>
Re: Withdrawl from the Imperium<BR>
Re: Sixth Frontier War!<BR>
Re: The Generation Ship in SF (was Re: Cons On Ice Scenario Idea)<BR>
Re: Cultures (WAS Evolution...) Longish<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 22:55:55 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Cultures (WAS Evolution...) Longish<BR>
<BR>
Shimmergloom wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Well, the setting is non canon, so the 30,000 years is no problem.  But I try to<BR>
> avoid over using the Ancients so they don't get boring to the players.  I mainly<BR>
> wanted to know ho long it might take for evolution to produce a new sophant<BR>
> species on the ship so I could judge how long to have the ship floating in<BR>
> space.  The species I have in mind are a tribe of reptiles that are roughly late<BR>
> iron age.  (Using the stuff found around the ship and worshiping the auto-repair<BR>
> system maybe.)<BR>
<BR>
Part of that will depend on the original stock from which the race would<BR>
develop.  Using primates as an example, it would take much longer for<BR>
prosimians, such as lemurs, to develop into a sentient species than for<BR>
apes, such as gibbons or orangutans.<BR>
<BR>
Since there are, AFAIK, no current reptiles that are more intelligent<BR>
than lemurs, I would expect at least 50 million years of evolution to be<BR>
required to develop a sentient reptilian race from current Terran<BR>
stock.  OTOH, given that some dinosaurs are said to have been as<BR>
intelligent as some apes, a sentient species could evolve from some of<BR>
the smarter dinosaurs in just a few million years.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, given higher mutation rates than those found on Earth<BR>
(reasonably plausible on a generation ship), plus greater evolutionary<BR>
pressures (again, plausible on a relatively small, tight habitat such as<BR>
a generation ship), you could see a sentient species arise from a<BR>
relatively smart dinosauroid in maybe one million years or less.<BR>
<BR>
My recommendation, if you want these reptilian sophonts to be of<BR>
original Terran stock, is to have them transplanted onto the ship by a<BR>
race that predates the Ancients by 60 million years or so, who would be<BR>
as much of a mystery to the Ancients (based on recovered fragments of<BR>
Ancient records) as the Ancients are to us.<BR>
<BR>
If, OTOH, the original stock is unimportant, find an out-of-the-way<BR>
world that could support large lifeforms except for an atmospheric<BR>
taint, create a species that almost fits your needs (but is _not quite_<BR>
sentient), and have the ship be built by a now-dead race from that world<BR>
(that killed itself [and nearly everything else]) off with a virulent<BR>
bioweapon (the taint in question).  Your new race would evolve from a<BR>
clever beast that had some utility for the shipbuilder's race (beast of<BR>
burden, menial laborer, or what have you).  This allows you to introduce<BR>
not only a new sophont race, but also any alternative tech that you want<BR>
your players to find.<BR>
<BR>
Obviously, the derelict ship in question would have to be large enough,<BR>
or automated enough, to support a pre-technological race in sufficient<BR>
numbers to allow the new race to develop.  As a wild guess, I would<BR>
think that you would need to support a population of two or three<BR>
million Saurians, since (having evolved on the ship) they would not have<BR>
easy access to the technological knowledge databases of the ship's<BR>
builders (who died out on the ship due to whatever handwave you choose).<BR>
<BR>
Of course, you could also have your reptilian sophonts _be_ the<BR>
previously-thought-extinct race from the previously-mentioned now-dead<BR>
world.  In that case, even a few thousand years might suffice for them<BR>
to lose most of their technological knowledge.  As you said, they might<BR>
worship the auto-repair systems, that allow the ship to sustain them<BR>
without their own repair efforts.  If the ship is large enough, they can<BR>
even fragment into different tribes (based, perhaps, on the systems<BR>
found in the portions of the ship they occupy), with trade and/or<BR>
warfare between different tribes.  FWIW, this is my recommendation for<BR>
your new species.  They may no longer know that they are on a spaceship,<BR>
or that there was a world on which they evolved.  In fact, since all<BR>
other lifeforms on the ship would be from their native planet, they may<BR>
believe that they, and all other life aboard the ship, evolved on the<BR>
ship.<BR>
<BR>
For some hints on how a reptilian sophont species might behave, check<BR>
out Harry Turtledove's "Worldwar" tetralogy....<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 23:53:04 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Consumer products in 3I (was Coke for Kiri (OT))<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 11/9/99 6:36:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, <BR>
cos90@powersurfr.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Any other examples? >><BR>
<BR>
Softdrinks, recreational drugs, exotic alcohols, weapons....:-)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 21:02:36 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: ... Sixth Frontier War!<BR>
<BR>
>From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)<BR>
>Subject: Re: Read all about it ! Sixth Frontier War! It's Official! (... or<BR>
not)<BR>
...<BR>
>How many does it take? Are one million POWs worth going to war for?<BR>
>One hundred thousand? One? Where do you draw the line?<BR>
<BR>
  In RL, it depends on whether or not you want a war :|<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 21:07:51 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: OOP Trav stuff<BR>
<BR>
  FWIW, people looking for older Trav stuff might try:<BR>
        www.titangames.com<BR>
        http://www.downport.com/<BR>
<BR>
  Last I looked there was plenty of neat stuff at either.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 21:10:23 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Cultures (WAS Evolution and the drifting generation ship)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Well, the setting is non cannon, so the 30,000 years is no problem.<BR>
> But I try to avoid over using the Ancients so they don't get boring<BR>
> to the players.<BR>
<BR>
One of Traveller's shortcomings is that while it borrowed the idea of<BR>
"Forerunners" from Norton and others, they made them a *single*<BR>
civilization. Norton handles the concept the best with the term being<BR>
rather generic and applying to *any* interstellar capable civilization<BR>
that was gone before any of the currently exist ones arrived on the<BR>
scene. This gives you civilizations running from ones that vanished<BR>
only a little before her Zacathans hit the scene (around 10k years<BR>
back) to ones that vanished hundreds of thousands of years ago. <BR>
<BR>
So you can't get bored, because you're dealing with cultures that were<BR>
widely seperated in time, space, or both. And that were very<BR>
*different* from each other.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 21:29:36 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org><BR>
Subject: Latest graphic is up!<BR>
<BR>
I just finished posting my latest image.  As I mentioned in an earlier<BR>
post, it's called "Scout Down On Tundra IV Bravo."  Find it at:<BR>
<BR>
  http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/art<BR>
<BR>
As always, comments and critiques are welcome.<BR>
<BR>
I'm about half way done with my next picture.  It's not Traveller per se,<BR>
but is space SF.  The working title is "Tribute to Hugo Gernsback."<BR>
<BR>
        - Mark C.<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
 mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com<BR>
 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>
 Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818      <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 00:58:31 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Arts and Culture in and around 3I<BR>
<BR>
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>All this talk about corporations and the various races in<BR>
>and around the 3I get me to wondering: what kind of cultural<BR>
>expressionism (ie, "the arts") will we find from the various<BR>
>races? What do Vilani paintings look like? (Do they even paint<BR>
>paintings?) What kind of music do Zhodani listen to? Are the<BR>
>arts in the Solomani Confederacy the state-supporting propaganda<BR>
>one found in the Eastern Bloc pre-1990 or in Nazi Germany?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ha! Good question! It's a damn shame that there is no simple answer. Styles<BR>
can change quickly (even in pre-industrial societies). I mean, I could<BR>
rattle off the styles for quite some time that appeared from the Renaissance<BR>
to the modern day, and there would still be dozens, if not scores, that I'd<BR>
be leaving out... and that would just be in the West!<BR>
<BR>
Answering a question like "What do Vilani paintings look like?" is like<BR>
answering the question "What do Terran paintings look like?" There are few<BR>
similarities between cubism, pointilism, and neo-classicism, for example.<BR>
The same goes for other forms of art as well... sculpture, architecture,<BR>
fashion design, industrial design (compare the Atari 2600 to the Nintendo<BR>
64, for example, or a stereo made circa 1973 to one made in 1984 to one made<BR>
today), poetry, literature, film, theater...<BR>
<BR>
My head is spinning.<BR>
<BR>
Okay.<BR>
<BR>
I did a piece for the Traveller culture list concerning one style of Vilani<BR>
painting, which I can try to dig up, and I've got a few various tidbits of<BR>
cultural flavor on my webpage at http://www.pil.net/~semo , there's quite a<BR>
bit on the state of the Vilani music scene in the early 1100s.<BR>
<BR>
There was a RICE paper article that detailed Aslan "Trokh Ofera" <sp>, Aslan<BR>
"talk opera". All in all a nifty idea. There was also a JTAS that detailed<BR>
K'Kree scent-sculptures as part of an adventure. I'm sure that there are<BR>
many more that I'm forgetting.<BR>
<BR>
>The only example IMTU that's come up is Vargr Opera, as one of<BR>
>the characters is a Vargr. We've determined that Vargr opera<BR>
>is reminiscent of Klingon Opera from Star Trek, but with a lot<BR>
>more howling. ("Sparky", the Vargr engineer, has been told to<BR>
>stop playing it over the ship's loudspeakers -- or else.)<BR>
><BR>
>Any other examples?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Okay, one off the top of my head:<BR>
<BR>
Darmine Experiential Animation: A style once popular in the Darmine<BR>
Corporate during the long night, which has been acquiring some degree of<BR>
popularity in Daibei recently (circa 1105). An experiential animator will<BR>
connect to a device that keeps track of his pulse, body temperature,<BR>
movements, etc. and will use a special "keyboard" that allows him to express<BR>
concepts quickly that words cannot express (all manner of sensations). He<BR>
will then take / use / imbibe a mind-altering substance of some sort. A<BR>
special computer and software will transform the data it receives into<BR>
animation.<BR>
<BR>
It's not terribly fleshed out. I'd like to give it a little more in the way<BR>
of history, and I would like to give it one or more movements as well. It's<BR>
based on Leary and Alpert's "Experiential Typewriter."<BR>
<BR>
This brings me to my next point: I'm on Bruce Sterling's "Dead Media"<BR>
mailing list. The posts are very infrequent, *but* the collected notes are<BR>
an excellent resource for would be world builder types. I have the collected<BR>
notes from at least a year ago, if you poke around you should be able to<BR>
find a meatier file. There are plenty of interesting things in there that<BR>
you can graft into your Traveller universe.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 01:07:29 -0600<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Zhodani Gov't<BR>
<BR>
I have been reading the Zhodani govt thread and find it very <BR>
interesting since i dont have any of the supplements.  I would like <BR>
to ask about the nobles, what about the nobles in rebillion?  I think <BR>
this might cause great problems. They could not only protect <BR>
themselves but change others minds  (prole) to side with them.<BR>
<BR>
Also as far as art work goes I think the Zhodani would have a cool <BR>
since of visional/mental art. I can see them doing direct imput. Or <BR>
you can do what I did for a Mage (tm) with an artist who had mind <BR>
read/control.  His art respondant to the viwer.  So lets say its a sea <BR>
painting and the viwer thought of a stormy sea.  The art would <BR>
change to a stormy sea.  Though in this case the artist would have <BR>
to be there.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
www.premier.net/~tim <BR>
225-388-8883<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable <BR>
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for <BR>
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 22:22:57 -0800<BR>
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com><BR>
Subject: Web Site<BR>
<BR>
Hi all<BR>
<BR>
    Just got my web site up and running. Your comments are welcome.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.members.home.net/wewart/wewart/traveller/index.htm<BR>
<BR>
Wayne (CT/HG Templar wanna-be)<BR>
wewart@home.com<BR>
<BR>
Give a man fire and he is warm for the night.<BR>
Set a man on fire and he is warm all his life.<BR>
- - Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 19:49:11 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Travshorts II<BR>
<BR>
> > >Go ahead and laugh, human. The Electron Liberation Front will have it's<BR>
> > >revenge!<BR>
> ><BR>
> >ELF, eh? I thought they were limited to aquatic operations.<BR>
><BR>
> Mmm... Elf...  The other white meat....<BR>
<BR>
You leave Mr. Sternberg out of this.<BR>
<BR>
Marc Miller wouldn't approve.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 22:50:45 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Traveller Auction: DGP, large format GDW, misc.<BR>
<BR>
Hello,<BR>
  Sorry for the bandwidth if this doesn't interest you, but some of you might<BR>
want these items; updates will be to bidders or interested individuals only.<BR>
<BR>
Rules: [all e-mail to:  shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca   (_not_ the TML, please)]<BR>
1) Purchaser pays all shipping charges (i.e., insurance is extra); Canada<BR>
Post (preferred) or UPS. Postage will vary by weight of order, but roughly $3 US<BR>
per book (for small shipments in bubble-pak envelopes - less per unit for <BR>
more books; more if UPS.<BR>
2) Payment by _US Postal Service_ Postal Money Order, unless agreed otherwise.<BR>
 Items will be shipped only after payment is received. <BR>
3) Minimum bids are listed; all amounts are $US. For simplicities sake I'll<BR>
 e-mail updates to bidders on each Monday, Thursday, and Saturday, and close<BR>
 the auction on Tuesday, November 23rd, 2300 PST.<BR>
4) Condition of items varies considerably; please read individual description.<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
 Miscellaneous boxed games:<BR>
$5   Godsfire (Task Force Games) - new, shrink-wrapped.<BR>
$10  Orbit War (Steve Jackson Games) - new, shrink-wrapped.<BR>
$35  The Company War (Mayfair) - new, shrink-wrapped.<BR>
<BR>
 SJG - Traveller _Cardboard Heroes_ (1982):<BR>
NOTE - these full-color cardboard miniatures fold to form 20mm high counters <BR>
 with ~15mm high front & back images of the depicted human characters.<BR>
$8   Set 1: Soldiers of Fortune - 3 uncut sheets each of 19 different<BR>
characters <BR>
 and 15 pieces of small gear (flat), with original bag/label. As new condition.<BR>
$5   A) one uncut sheet each from Sets 2 & 3 (Imperial Marines & Zhodani, <BR>
 respectively). Each sheet is of 19 characters and 15 pieces of small gear<BR>
(flat,<BR>
 non-fold-up); as each of these two Sets originally included three identical<BR>
 sheets (characters T2-1 to T2-19 Imperial Marines and T3-1 to T3-19 Zhodani)<BR>
 this includes all of those characters, but without the duplicates.<BR>
$5   B) as A), above, second set.<BR>
<BR>
 GDW - Classic Traveller LBB:<BR>
$6   Supplement 9: FIGHTING SHIPS - 48p - good condition; cover wear<BR>
 GDW / DGP - Traveller, large (8.5'x11") format:<BR>
$4   ASSIGNMENT: VIGILANTE - 16p+ color foldout cover: good condition.<BR>
$22  Flaming Eye Campaign - 104p - excellent condition; cover wear.<BR>
$18  Knightfall - 96p - excellent condition.<BR>
$12  MegaTraveller Journal #3 - 104p - mint condition.<BR>
$14  MegaTraveller Journal #4 - 104p -  new, shrink-wrapped.<BR>
$10  Mission on Mithril/Shadows - 16p - fair cond. (highlighting/underlining)<BR>
<BR>
 GURPS & Car Wars (all out-of-print per SJG site):<BR>
$8   Atomic Horror (1993) - 128p - very good condition.<BR>
$6   Car Wars City Blocks 2 - 32 letter-sized card sheets makes 32 8"x8" blocks<BR>
 marked in 0.25" & 1.0" grids, plus 5'^2 of roads/features - new,<BR>
shrink-wrapped.<BR>
$16  Cyberworld (1994) - 128p - mint condition.<BR>
$6   Space Bestiary (1990) - 112p - fair condition.<BR>
<BR>
 Miscellaneous RPG rules & supplements:<BR>
$3   All Fall Down (Atlas Games: Cyberpunk) - 30p - good condition.<BR>
$12  Chicago Arcology (I.C.E.: Cyberspace) - 206p - mint condition.<BR>
$3   Mechwarrior RPG (1.ed) (FASA: Battletech) - 144p, colour plates -<BR>
excellent  condition; cover wear, and serious spine wear.<BR>
$4   Technical Readout 3026 - Vehicles and Personal Equipment (FASA: Battletech)<BR>
 very good condition; cover wear, and serious spine wear.<BR>
 Bard Games (Talislanta)<BR>
$9   Cyclopedia Talislanta #4: The Western Lands (1989) - 72p - near-mint cond.<BR>
$12  The Lexicon: Atlas of the Lost World of Atlantis (1985) - 128p, plus 16"x<BR>
 20" fold-out map still attached to inside rear cover - mint condition.<BR>
 TSR  (AD&D Lankhmar Campaign)<BR>
$8   Wonders of Lankhmar (1990) - 96p - excellent condition.                <BR>
$9   Newhon (1990) - 96p, plus full-colour fold-out maps - excellent condition.<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson - shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 22:51:42 -0800<BR>
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
Subject: Fifth Frontier War Starts 20 November<BR>
<BR>
Bay Area Traveller Players note that on 20 November I'l be hosting<BR>
the first meeting for The Fifth Frontier War at my house.  RSVP by<BR>
email if you can make it.  Anyone welcome.<BR>
<BR>
Kristian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 01:52:36 -0500<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Travshorts II<BR>
<BR>
At 07:49 PM 11/10/99 +1300, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > Mmm... Elf...  The other white meat....<BR>
><BR>
>You leave Mr. Sternberg out of this.<BR>
><BR>
>Marc Miller wouldn't approve.<BR>
<BR>
Huh?<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:00:19 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Coke for Kiri (OT)<BR>
<BR>
First there was<BR>
<BR>
"A Canticle for Liebowitz"<BR>
<BR>
then the newly topical<BR>
<BR>
"Flowers for Algernon"<BR>
<BR>
and now<BR>
<BR>
"A Coke for Kiri"<BR>
<BR>
The story of a young Aslan's desperate quest throughout the lesser populated<BR>
reaches of the Spinward Marches for the legendary non-corn syrup Coca Cola,<BR>
to satisfy the last wish of his father's human consort, and to maintain the<BR>
honour of his clan<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
 Now I have an idea for a Traveller story for that collection of Martin's<BR>
<BR>
(Oh, BTW, we have sugar-based coke in New Zealand too. )<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 22:45:43 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Zhodani<BR>
<BR>
>Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
>>>>>>>>><BR>
>> The Proles get a "vote" by outnumbering the Nobles by several orders<BR>
>> of magnitude. They are induced by various means to "vote" not to<BR>
>> overthrow the government, the mechanism of this vote is that they<BR>
>> do not overthrow the government.<BR>
><BR>
>Actually, that's not true.  The nobles are some 5% of the Zhodani population<BR>
>>>>>>>>><BR>
[snip]<BR>
>Or is the 5% based on a character generation system? (Recalling how<BR>
>many nobles and admirals the CT Traveller Chargen indicated were in<BR>
>the Imperial population... ;-)  )<BR>
<BR>
it's from the text, not the CGen.<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
><BR>
>Anthony again:<BR>
>>>>>>>>>><BR>
>>the benevolent Zho idea is that the Zho's are supposed<BR>
>> to have the information needed to be better at it.<BR>
><BR>
>The evidence is that they're right.<BR>
>>>>>>>>>><BR>
>I think there can be some interesting questions as to whether they<BR>
>are right due to sufficient knowledge, or right due to sufficient power.<BR>
>The presented results are hard to argue with, but the results do not<BR>
>necessarily flow from the reasons given by the Zhodani government.<BR>
><BR>
>The answer is almost certainly a little bit of both. They know a lot,<BR>
>but not as much as they think they do - and some of their theories,<BR>
>though certainly not all, work because they can *make* them work.<BR>
<BR>
Take the Tavershedzle (sp?)... they don't look so much for the unhappy, as<BR>
those who are leaning towards ciminality. There is a reference to "unhapy"<BR>
zhodani... and being unhappy is NOT grounds for reducation, unless such<BR>
unhappiness is leading one to criminality. The big difference socially is<BR>
that the mental processes leading to ciminal beahviour are themselves the<BR>
crime. The term is translated erroneously to "Thought Police", the text<BR>
defines it as "Guardians of Our Morality", and defines the role in that<BR>
light. They find those who are a-moral or immoral, by zhodani standards,<BR>
and (forcibly, if needed) help them build a moral code in line with<BR>
standard Zhodani ethical standards. Note also that even nobles are subject<BR>
to re-education, by the standard techniques.<BR>
<BR>
Also, the definitions of Crimes in the Consulate are very different: Crimes<BR>
of neglect, Crimes of Passion, and Crimes of Insanity. The former are<BR>
usually fines, lest you commmit them repeatedly or REQUEST reeducation on<BR>
them. Crimes of Passion are seen as temporary breaks of self-control due to<BR>
unusual stress, and are punished with reparitions and counselling,<BR>
sometimes reeducation into a new situation (Read job & location) where such<BR>
stresses are less likely. Crimes of insanity are all other crimes... the<BR>
thought processes which result in the criminal intent are edited out, and<BR>
new methods found to deal with such stresses....<BR>
<BR>
See "Lacy and His Friends", IICR by M Lackey, for an example of rediredtion<BR>
of abberant impulses in a non-psionic but very nearly Zhodani society...<BR>
Lacy must masturbate, when he gets his abberant behavioural impulse (He was<BR>
a rapist); Lacy's rewiring includes not being able to get an errection with<BR>
a female nearby, and IIRC, even outside the appropriate locations.<BR>
<BR>
The material in Adv 0 also jives with the "Benevolent Tavrshedzle" mode...<BR>
but is vague enough not to conflict with either mode.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis mailto:wilh@alaska.com<BR>
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 02:47:29 EST<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Zhodani Govt.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU> did command an infinite number <BR>
of Proles to type:<BR>
<BR>
>> <BR>
>> GypsyComet again:<BR>
>> >>>>>>>>>><BR>
>>  Human psyche being what it is, the Tavrchedl' will prefer adjustment <BR>
>> techniques that will stand up under pressure, whether you view the <BR>
>> Zhodani as benevolent or malevolent. If you have to re-adjust the same <BR>
>> poor b----rd every few months because his job is stressful enough to <BR>
>> shred the "life is simple" conditioning you stamped on his brain in three <BR>
>> minutes, then you are very probably going to work on the twenty minute <BR>
>> "good for a decade" technique just to keep the workload down. <BR>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>><BR>
>> Except that jobs with that kind of stress levels probably aren't performed<BR>
>> by simple proles. The high-stress jobs are done by the hosts of <BR>
>> Intendants, out there trying to prove themselves in Zho society, or by<BR>
>> the Nobles. These people have entirely different worldviews than the<BR>
>> simple ones allowed to the proles. and will have very different coping<BR>
>> mechanisms.<BR>
><BR>
>Have any of you _read_ the various Zhodani supplements?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
 Well, not in the past month. I have not internalized the G:T<BR>
book because I found things I plain hate, but I have done a<BR>
great deal of thinking about the Zhodani since becoming<BR>
the HIWG Sector Analyst (retired) for two Zhodani sectors<BR>
and helping on two others in the six+ years since.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>What would be done with the poor b____d is that he'd be moved into a job<BR>
>more suited to his talents/limits. They're not bending peopel to fit the<BR>
>job, but the jobs to fit the people.<BR>
<BR>
 This sort of activity has long been part of my take on the Tavrchedl', <BR>
actually, but I was specifically responding to the Brain Stamp theory.<BR>
 Before he left the hobby, an old friend and fellow Zhodani enthusiast and I <BR>
posited the existence of a branch of the Tavrchedl' that redirected the <BR>
perpetually square-peg proles they found into fruitful work _somewhere_, <BR>
often beyond the Consulate entirely. The Zhodani, through the efforts of the <BR>
Tavrchedl' and others, are very good at career placement when they have the <BR>
manpower to do so. There are limits, however. A particular world economy may <BR>
not have the wiggle room to shift everyone to jobs where they would be <BR>
happiest, so adjusting the person instead is going to be a common occurance.<BR>
<BR>
 To answer the obvious question, I am a "benevolent" Zhodani proponent. Such <BR>
is required to have a functional society over six thousand years. The <BR>
"malevelant" brain-sucking, Prole-enslaving Zhodani model is a good one for <BR>
raw Space Opera enemies (who won't last more than a generation or two) <BR>
because it is ideally suited to the "war-machine disguised as a functional <BR>
society" type of state. If someone wants to use the Zhodani for that in their <BR>
game that's fine, but don't try to convince me that it's true in the OTU.<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 23:05:28 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Withdrawl from the Imperium<BR>
<BR>
>>ObTrav: A planet has a referendum to remove themselves from Imperial<BR>
>>rule and to become an independent, sovereign state... would the<BR>
>>Imperial Palace be nice and send diplomats or not so nice and send<BR>
>>in thew shock troops? And would they wait until after the referendum?<BR>
><BR>
>They might not send in the Drop Troops, but they would certainly hold an<BR>
>"unannounced fleet exercise" that happens to have most of the high profile<BR>
>subsector fleet assets involved...<BR>
><BR>
IMTU, they'd not only hold those fleet excercises in orbit, but would have<BR>
the marines ready to drop, as well as sending a team of nobles, with<BR>
huscarles, to "Visit the Local Noble", and defend the starport. Also, the<BR>
local "Imperial Forces" (IE, locally raised troops subject to imperial<BR>
activation) would be activated and shipped elsewhere for the duration. And<BR>
a team of diplomats would remind the government that withdrawl means an<BR>
absolute interdict.<BR>
<BR>
If they DO withdraw peacefully, they merely get interdicted... The navy and<BR>
marines evacuate all who wish to leave, and take over the starports. Anyone<BR>
leaving gets informed that the trip out is one way. All extraplanetary<BR>
(Inlcuding in-system) trade gets supressed. The military personell shipped<BR>
elsewhere are informed they may not return home. The navy shoots down<BR>
blockade runners. Marine drops assault anybody who DOES make it through, as<BR>
soon as they are found. And the local noble is "Protected" by his<BR>
Huscarles, and imperial forces, to await the re-entry petition.<BR>
<BR>
If they Withdraw by force, they lose all industrial bases, all who take up<BR>
arms are barred from imperial citizenship, but still considered subjects.<BR>
The marines impose martial law. The navy wipes out all satellite systems.<BR>
The iron fist cranks down on EVERYONE on-world... those wishing to flee had<BR>
better be able to prove off-world connections (or citizenship); in which<BR>
case they will be excorted off from the starports, much like above. And a<BR>
full interdict for the duration of the "insurrection", much as above.<BR>
<BR>
In either case, the local noble gets protected. He's the escape route for<BR>
the government... he's the one they petition to to get off planet. And, for<BR>
the duration, the Navy keeps his hold well stocked, and recieving<BR>
goodies... and smugglers get the 4mm Gauss to the back... Tours (of<BR>
disarmed locals) are often set up, just to remind everyone how much better<BR>
it was. Anyone entering the estate gets searched and disarmed, with a no<BR>
punishment, and no return of contraband, policy. Come and see how the<BR>
Imperials live... Price: lose any weapons you might be carrying, and exit<BR>
with only clothes...<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis mailto:wilh@alaska.com<BR>
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:29:26 +0200<BR>
From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi><BR>
Subject: Re: Sixth Frontier War!<BR>
<BR>
> ...the Zhodani Consulate continues to hold POW's captured during the<BR>
> Fourth and Fifth Frontier Wars.<BR>
<BR>
	Interesting. According to alien module 4, the very idea of <BR>
	keeping people in prison appears to be quite foreign to the <BR>
	Zhodani. With psionic interrogation and re-education techniques <BR>
	they have no need to keep prisoners, and it would be more <BR>
	practical to deport all those "dead-brain" Imperial EPWs after <BR>
	the war.<BR>
<BR>
	It is more likely that colonel Ruys de Bessier is deliberately <BR>
	spreading false anti-zhodani propaganda to get excuse for <BR>
	another war. This is the way the Evil Imperium has been working <BR>
	for ages.<BR>
<BR>
	This could be a basis for a espionage/rescue adventure, where <BR>
	the "rescuers" find out that they have been duped by false <BR>
	propaganda and there is nothing to be rescued. They have just <BR>
	killed large number of Zhodani children and senior citizens for <BR>
	no reason, and would now like to have a long private <BR>
	conversation with a certain imperial intelligence officers.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
      Antti Lahtinen                lahtinen@ee.tut.fi<BR>
      Researcher, MSc (Eng)         http://www.ee.tut.fi/~lahtinen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:17:27 +0000<BR>
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk<BR>
Subject: Re: The Generation Ship in SF (was Re: Cons On Ice Scenario Idea)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard wrote:<BR>
>There's another one that I can't recall the author of. It's got a<BR>
>pseudo Aztec culture living in a mountain valley. And then our hero<BR>
>decides to break the taboos and go exploring. He climbs the monutains<BR>
>and finds that they touch the sky! Turns out the "valley" is the inside<BR>
>of a generation ship. I can't recall why the passengers were handled<BR>
>that way.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I haven't seen this answered (except by people suggesting it was a Star<BR>
Trek episode) but I think you may have been thinking of Harry Harrison's<BR>
'Captive Universe'.  Only the book's in the attic at home and I'm at work<BR>
so I can't easily check!<BR>
<BR>
tc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:51:41 +0000<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Cultures (WAS Evolution...) Longish<BR>
<BR>
Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>My recommendation, if you want these reptilian sophonts to be of<BR>
>original Terran stock, is to have them transplanted onto the ship by a<BR>
>race that predates the Ancients by 60 million years or so, who would be<BR>
>as much of a mystery to the Ancients (based on recovered fragments of<BR>
>Ancient records) as the Ancients are to us.<BR>
<BR>
You could use the intelligent dinosaurs that left before the rock hit,<BR>
taking most of their eco-friendly biodegradeable technology with them.<BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1332<BR>
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